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Scott N
Joined: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 1525
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 Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:48 pm Post subject: Liberals Stand Tall on Pakistan Murders |
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According to the Pakistani government the latest missile strike killed a government supporter as well as his whole family, including a five year old child.
JohnA at Truthmove writes
| Quote: | should we just stick our heads in the sand and look inward to blame ourselves? or should we seek out and destroy all those complicit ON BOTH SIDES OF THE WORLD?
i understand your issue with the horrors of war and collatoral damage. |
Read it and weep folks. Here is your Obama Cult in action.
And here's some Pakistani children who thought things would be different:
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chrisc
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 1168
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:43 pm Post subject: Nafeez Ahmed on Obama |
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| Nafeez Ahmed wrote: | while neutralizing and thoroughly confusing progressive social and anti-war movements in and outside the West, the arrival of Obama has allowed the US government to rally unprecedented popular support behind it, for whatever it intends to do.
We will see, in this respect, a marked shift in the language and rhetoric of foreign policy, a return to more diplomatic strategies, as well as military policies couched in the discourse of humanitarian intervention and aid. Unfortunately, for a while, this shift will seem more convincing coming from Obama, as opposed to Bush. More than ever, therefore, progressive movements will need to up their game in understanding and accurately critiquing the new administration’s policies, if they are to prevent processes of imperial militarization from intensifying.
Read the full article... |
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JohnA
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 949
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Danse - as usual your posts are laden with lies and distortions.
Your selective cherry picking of a single quote from my posts at TruthMove is intellectually dishonest and slanderous - and does not represent my personal opinions.
for the record - i do NOT support missile strikes against Pakistan for the very reasons Levis listed - it serves to destabalize a very unstable and dangerous part of the world - while undercutting the newly elected civilian government there.
ya know - the problem with you Obama-bashers is that you cannot tolerate ANY debate or raising of questions - or devil's advocate challenges to your thinking.
but then again - we do see intellectual giants posting crap like this here:
http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4893&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
... in which a video is posted morphing Obama's face with Adolph Hitler's - and some wacko preacher attempting to convince his audience that Obama is in fact the moral equivalent or Hitler.
What sort of intellectual honesty and sense of proportion can one expect from people who post these sorts of adolescent attempts to equate Obama to Hitler?
Not only is this insulting to the victim's of Hitler's mass murder (50 million dead in WW2) - but it is insulting to the intelligence of anyone with an OUNCE of integrity.
At the same time we see the intentional INSULTS Mr Danse offers up by posting pictures equating African Americans in tears with teenagers in tears at a Beatles concert.
This is culturally insensitive and - again - intellectually dishonest.
I think this perfectly underscores the lack of objectivity and fairness of Mr Danse’s opinions. These African Americans in tears that he seeks to mock and degrade with this analogy are the descendents of slaves - segregated citizens who were beaten and hosed down in the streets, attacked with dogs and LYNCHED. These people in tears that Mr Danse seeks to pass judgment on and poison the atmosphere of hope and good will that this election has created, just decades ago would have been unable to be served lunch, use a water fountain or VOTE in some areas of this country. These people in tears that Danse seeks to MOCK may very well have relatives – fathers, mothers, grandfathers, grandmothers, uncles and aunts, who have suffered DIRECTLY from bigotry and hatred. They have endured church burnings and bombings. They have endured CASTRATION and hangings and assassinations and degradation on a scale that Mr. Danse can hardly even approach in understanding.
Comparing these african americans in tears to sily teenagers at a Beatles concert PERFECTLY underscores Mr Danse's total inability to remain objective and balanced in his crusade silence any debate on the topic of Mr Obama.
"The Obama cult." the very term is itself is designed to degrade those who fail to adopt Mr Danse's ultra-extreme opinions - and to POISON public opinion against this president, distorting his intentions, before he has even made those intentions clear thru ACTIONS.
Everyone is entitled to opinions. But when those opinions start infringing on the dignity of people who have suffered a generational holocaust – (both african-americans AND the victims of Hitler) seeking to dismiss their very legitimate emotions – and negate their hopes - I really have to wonder what side of social justice, honesty, and fairness Mr. Danse represents.
threads equating Obama to Hitler? brilliant stuff. |
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snowflake
Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 450
Location: SF Bay Area
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:34 am Post subject: a message from an intellectual giant: |
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yeah Danse, how dare you spoil our moment? this was our new president's FIRST BLOOD!!!! it's also the first time in our nation's great history that a black president has murdered anybody, so this is a civil rights victory as well. how dare you ruin such a milestone!! shame!
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truebeleaguer
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:24 am Post subject: |
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I think we've got a bit of a generational thing going on here. Folks who were born in the 80's probably see race as no big deal, and can not comprehend how significant it might seem to someone who was part of the civil rights struggles of the 60's that we have a black (or part-black, anyway) President.
For me the issue of the danger of the cult of the personality is paramount, so I tend to be suspicious of Obama. I can understand someone being offended by equating Obama-enthusiasm with Beatlemania, but I can understand how someone might feel justified in making that point. In the context of a criticism of the personality cult, I'm not sure the Hitler comparisons are entirely unjustified. Time will tell. Dangerous times will tell.
I bet Obama "just feels right" to most of his supporters, and his racial background supports a distracting sense of historical inevitability and justification quite aside from his merits, which I doubt many of his supporters can coherently define. |
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Scott N
Joined: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 1525
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Your selective cherry picking of a single quote from my posts at TruthMove is intellectually dishonest and slanderous - and does not represent my personal opinions. |
Would you have preferred more quotes?
I thought I was doing you a favor. If you insist:
| Quote: | the essential question here is whether Pakistan (despite its newly
'elected government') is still in the grips of elements of the ISI/Al Qaeda - or "baddies" as you put it - and whether there is EVER a justification for taking action. |
| Quote: | | would you NOT agree that the recent attacks on India indicate that there are STILL interested 'parties' in Pakistan that SEEK to destabalize the elected government? IF we are to believe India's intelligence - these attacks were coordinated by elements of Pakistan's intelligence community? |
| Quote: |
i understand your issue with the horrors of war and collatoral damage. but i also know that you are smart enough to know that the overarching issue of much more complex than that - and i hope that you can in all honesty not use the theatrics of invoking the 'horrors or war' to duck the more critical questions. |
| Quote: |
if you were president - what would YOU do with the situation? pretend that there is no threat from these 'entities'? |
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| Quote: | your solutions seem noble - but perhaps a little naive?.
i am unsure if the heroin, arms, black-ops trade is open to diplomacy and graduated well-reasoned diplomatic solutions. |
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| Quote: | and you want to speak of collateral damage from missile strikes?
Bwahahahahahaha!!!
how do we even begin to measure the shattered lives and destroyed resources of a world community at the mercy of this crime syndicate? |
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| Quote: | | i like your idealism Levis. But - i wonder who exactly is being naďve here? perhaps a strongly worded letter will make them stop? perhaps arresting them? who? where? how? you and what army? |
--
AFTER all of this nonsense -- which I responded to -- you now agree with Levis. Well, I'm glad.
How on Earth was I taking your "collateral damage" remark out of context? It appeared to me (and I'm sure many others reading the above) that your intention was to justify (in your own imagination, or perhaps troubled conscience) Obama's murders in Pakistan. If you were truly just "playing devil's advocate" then I apologize. I don't mean that snarkily -- if your comments were all a charade then I'm sorry for misrepresenting you.
| Quote: | | "The Obama cult." the very term is itself is designed to degrade those who fail to adopt Mr Danse's ultra-extreme opinions |
My "ultra extreme opinions" are for peace rather than war. This makes me appalled at Obama's cavalier firing of missiles that kill people and their families.
The fact that some people have demonized Pakistani citizens to the point where they snicker at the thought of Obama being dragged off to the Hague in response to such killings is a symptom of a deep nationalist pathology. There's a million plus dead Iraqis, so a few missiles here and there are "no big deal". Hardy har har.
Yes, I agree with Chomsky that if the Nuremberg laws were upheld, every American president since WWII would have been hanged. I sincerely doubt Obama will be an exception. He's not off to a good start.
If Obama kills, say, two thousand people via these missiles strikes in the next year (or how bout a hundred thousand via the "surge" in Afghanistan), will that qualify for a trip to the Hague? If not, why do you seek punishment for the perpetrators of 911?
| Quote: | | - and to POISON public opinion against this president, distorting his intentions, before he has even made those intentions clear thru ACTIONS. |
Staffing his cabinet with Wall Street Crooks and Zionists and war-mongers was an ACTION. In fact, a great many presidential scholars believe that the selecting of the cabinet is one of the most important ACTIONS a president takes.
Leaving gigantic loopholes in his torture "ban" was an ACTION. Bombing Pakistan was an ACTION. Speaking out in support of Israel after the nauseating slaughter in Gaza was an ACTION.
[for those interested, check out Obama's full speech on Israel's criminal aggression on Democracy Now! It ain't pretty.)
Is it ok for me to criticize the dear leader yet? Or do I have to wait 'til the body count reaches 1000 and Bono does a tribute for the kids in Afghanistan?
The problem with "Democrats" is that they are frequently just as partisan and sheep-like as Bushbot Republicans. I had originally intended to include a bunch of enthusiastic praise from posters at Democratic Underground in support of Obama's first bombs but was so appalled by your thread at truthmove that I stuck with the one.
| Quote: | | I think this perfectly underscores the lack of objectivity and fairness of Mr Danse’s opinions. These African Americans in tears that he seeks to mock and degrade with this analogy are the descendents of slaves - segregated citizens who were beaten and hosed down in the streets, attacked with dogs and LYNCHED. These people in tears that Mr Danse seeks to pass judgment on and poison the atmosphere of hope and good will that this election has created, just decades ago would have been unable to be served lunch, use a water fountain or VOTE in some areas of this country. These people in tears that Danse seeks to MOCK may very well have relatives – fathers, mothers, grandfathers, grandmothers, uncles and aunts, who have suffered DIRECTLY from bigotry and hatred. They have endured church burnings and bombings. They have endured CASTRATION and hangings and assassinations and degradation on a scale that Mr. Danse can hardly even approach in understanding. |
In case you didn't notice, there were both white and black people in the photos I posted. It's not about skin color, it's about cult of personality and general hysteria. Hence the British Invasion analogy. Of course I feel for the African Americans who have lived to see the first Black President. It's just that, unlike most, I don't regard the American presidency as an honorable institution. Nor do I regard Obama as an honorable man. Therefore I feel more sympathy than elation when I see photos of black people weeping during one of Obama's speeches. I think it's pretty low to play the race card, John. I've posted dozens of articles from African Americans condemning Obama and his right-wing positions, which are sure to hurt African Americans every bit as much as people of other colours.
You react with horror and incredulity when you see Obama being compared with Hitler. Quite obviously the comparison is not meant to contrast body counts between the two "leaders" (it's only been a week, after all) but to the extraordinary cult of personality. I haven't seen anything like it in my lifetime. I find it shocking and potentially VERY dangerous. That's why I insist on speaking out on the matter when it's apparently quite unpopular to do so.
I should also add that though warrior tyrants like Stalin and Hitler get all of the press, the biggest body counts do not derive from bombs but rather "passive" genocide (backed with the iron fist, of course). So Chomsky writes:
| Quote: | "Suppose you were to undertake the same calculations that are used quite correctly to count up the crimes of communism? It turns out that in the leading democratic capitalist country of the South, in fact of the world, if you count population, that country alone up until about 1980 has produced about 100 million dead, the same number that’s attributed to all the communist countries of the 20th century in the world. That’s of course only the beginning. Suppose we carry out the same calculation on the same grounds elsewhere in the domains that are dominated by Western power. You’re going to get astronomical figures. But this is not an acceptable topic. There can be no Black Book detailing such facts, just as there can be no realistic comparison of the utterly hideous Soviet record with the record of comparable countries that remained under Western domination, for example, Brazil, taken over as a “testing area for scientific methods of development based solidly on capitalism,” according to celebratory and respected scholarship, with consequences for the vast majority of the population that are hardly much to celebrate...
So take say, we just passed the 10th anniversary of the Rwanda massacres, which were pretty horrible, maybe 8,000 people killed a day for a 100 days. Pretty awful massacre. And there's a lot of wringing of hands and lamentations about how we didn't do anything about it, we didn't intervene, we didn't send military forces, and so on, wasn't that terrible. Well yeah, it was pretty terrible, but let's take a look at today.
Right now, about the same number of people, about 8,000 people, about 8,000 children in fact, are dying in southern Africa every day from easily treatable diseases. We add hunger, it's going to go way up, let's keep to easily treatable diseases. That's Rwanda-level killing among children only, in southern Africa, not for 100 days, but every day. There's a very easy way to deal with it, namely bribe pharmaceutical corporations to provide them with drugs and the limited infrastructure that's required. [But almost no one is] talking about it. I mean that's far worse than Rwanda.
Furthermore if we go a step further and ask ourselves - speaking of barbarism - what kind of society do we live in where the only way we can think of preventing Rwanda-level killing among children everyday is by bribing private tyrannies to do something about it. I mean that itself is beyond barbarism." |
Guess who keeps blocking the UN resolution to declare food a human right?
You guessed it. In 2002, the United States stood alone among 182 nations
in opposing the measure.
Granted it's not quite as dramatic as concentration camps, but the numbers are exponentially larger.
Talk about a crime syndicate! How about a "devil's advocate" for bombing NY and Washington, DC? Oh wait...
In conclusion:
The major problem I have with the Obama cult (er, sorry, Obama supporters), aside from the pathetic hero-worship, is the abject failure to realize what actually moves society in a progressive direction. Politicians respond to pressure. Because we live in a pseudo-democracy, 99% of this pressure is imposed by the upper class. If you want to have any hope of real "change" then you best start criticizing and organizing rather than cheer leading. |
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Disco_Destroyer
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Posts: 420
Location: Essex
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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We are our saviour, if we fail (and we seem to be very good at waiting for our salvation) then who knows where Humanity will head from here?
Well said Danse:
| Quote: | | If you want to have any hope of real "change" then you best start criticizing and organizing rather than cheer leading. |
_________________
'Come and see the violence inherent in the system.
Help, help, I'm being repressed!' |
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Disco_Destroyer
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Posts: 420
Location: Essex
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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The use of Drones another similarity with WW2??
in WW2 Drones mostely looked like this:
_________________
'Come and see the violence inherent in the system.
Help, help, I'm being repressed!' |
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JohnA
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 949
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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i am no longer going to respond to your lies and slanderous accuations.
you in fact were called out on this by the moderators of TruthMove:
| Quote: | | Your post quoting JohnA out of context with no link over at TruthAction is totally unacceptable. You manipulated John's words by taking them out of context, and you malign him and TruthMove in the process. This is what I expect from one of our disinfo artists. |
the last several days have revealed that i am not alone in coming to the sad conclusion that the level of political discourse you have contributed in engaging in has dragged this forum into the gutter - and has resulted in personalized attacks - slanderous accusations of infanticide - culturally insensitive attacks against Obama supporters - and personal attacks against anyone who will not support your belief-system.
you fail to understand that this is no longer about politics. it is about the inappropriate exchanges that have taken place.
several very high profile long-standing activists in this movement, and contributors to these forums, have expressed deep frustration and suggested personally boycotting these boards as a result of this behavior - resulting in deep schisms in lonstanding friendships and regrettable exchanges among some of our best and brightest people.
People's feelings have been hurt and deeply regrettable and upsetting words have been exchanged.
the oldest of friendships - like YT and Nicholas Levis - have been strained to the breakpoint as a result of the relentless insensitivity and character assassination you and your supporters have engaged in - and as a result of your zero-tolerance policy of maligning anyone who dares to challenge your own personal belief system.
rather than fostering an atmosphere of free-speech and free-ideas, you have in fact created a highly contentious atmosphere of anger and vile accusations that has now spilled over to people whom i deeply respect.
i would like to PERSONALLY apologize to YT for all of this. but - i am unsure why my words on the TruthMOve forum should be cherry-picked and used here to strain the friendships of Jullian, Nicholas, Jenny, Cosmos, and everyone else who has been DRAGGED into this cesspool of a debate that YOU - DANSE - have helped create and encourage.
in the past i have bent over backwards to congratulate you on your knowledgability and sourcing of research. but - unfortunately - you have recently adopted a 'take no prisoners' approach to these boards - insulting and misrepresenting people - and the result has been unproductive to our community. |
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Disco_Destroyer
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Posts: 420
Location: Essex
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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Not getting involved in the argument but if we don't set aside room for differencies of opinion and support each other then we're doomed to live as paranoid spectators of the elites will 
_________________
'Come and see the violence inherent in the system.
Help, help, I'm being repressed!' |
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JohnA
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 949
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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don't worry - Obama will take care of all of that  |
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Disco_Destroyer
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Posts: 420
Location: Essex
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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lol why wait for a Messiah
_________________
'Come and see the violence inherent in the system.
Help, help, I'm being repressed!' |
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Scott N
Joined: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 1525
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| JohnA wrote: | i am no longer going to respond to your lies and slanderous accuations.
you in fact were called out on this by the moderators of TruthMove:
| Quote: | | Your post quoting JohnA out of context with no link over at TruthAction is totally unacceptable. You manipulated John's words by taking them out of context, and you malign him and TruthMove in the process. This is what I expect from one of our disinfo artists. |
the last several days have revealed that i am not alone in coming to the sad conclusion that the level of political discourse you have contributed in engaging in has dragged this forum into the gutter - and has resulted in personalized attacks - slanderous accusations of infanticide - culturally insensitive attacks against Obama supporters - and personal attacks against anyone who will not support your belief-system.
you fail to understand that this is no longer about politics. it is about the inappropriate exchanges that have taken place.
several very high profile long-standing activists in this movement, and contributors to these forums, have expressed deep frustration and suggested personally boycotting these boards as a result of this behavior - resulting in deep schisms in lonstanding friendships and regrettable exchanges among some of our best and brightest people.
People's feelings have been hurt and deeply regrettable and upsetting words have been exchanged.
the oldest of friendships - like YT and Nicholas Levis - have been strained to the breakpoint as a result of the relentless insensitivity and character assassination you and your supporters have engaged in - and as a result of your zero-tolerance policy of maligning anyone who dares to challenge your own personal belief system.
rather than fostering an atmosphere of free-speech and free-ideas, you have in fact created a highly contentious atmosphere of anger and vile accusations that has now spilled over to people whom i deeply respect.
i would like to PERSONALLY apologize to YT for all of this. but - i am unsure why my words on the TruthMOve forum should be cherry-picked and used here to strain the friendships of Jullian, Nicholas, Jenny, Cosmos, and everyone else who has been DRAGGED into this cesspool of a debate that YOU - DANSE - have helped create and encourage.
in the past i have bent over backwards to congratulate you on your knowledgability and sourcing of research. but - unfortunately - you have recently adopted a 'take no prisoners' approach to these boards - insulting and misrepresenting people - and the result has been unproductive to our community. |
Wow! That was a mouthful. I honestly had no idea you were so sensitive.
I interpreted your posts on Truthmove to be a defense of Obama's killings in Pakistan. Anyone who reads your quotes above can see why I came to this conclusion. I find these killings abhorrent. I also find the "defense" you mustered (whether devil's advocate or no) to be without substance. In my shock at witnessing a "911 truth activist" who has supposedly been educated as to to the fraudulent nature of "Al-Qaeda" making arguments for bombing "Al-Qaeda strongholds" I expressed by feelings on the matter. Re-reading your arguments on Truthmove, you even said that you "didn't mind" being used as a "punching bag" by "playing devil's advocate." Apparently you did mind. ALOT. I was actually quite gentle in the first post, to which you responded with invective and outrage. "No holds barred" indeed.
Having said all that, if I have caused friction between other people and if you are being sincere when you say that your posts on Truthmove were not a reflection of your actual opinions, then once again I apologize for inadvertently misrepresenting you.
Just say the word and I'm sure the mods will happily delete this threat.
PEACE |
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Protista910
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 26
Location: Warren, Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:24 am Post subject: |
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Here's the most unlikely ending to this charade. Both of you, whether you're cat fighting over if Obama is the same as Hitler or whether you talk of collateral damage, get the fuck over it.
Imo, both of you should be temporarily banned from the site completely. Then, when you come back we can have a consensus vote on what the consequences are for bickering at one another. If you want peace you better have proof. This a place for patriots and for those who know the NWO is real.
So, in the meantime I'll go bake some sugar cookies for all of us to snack on.
Simply delicious! |
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Scott N
Joined: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 1525
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:43 am Post subject: |
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